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Post by andreasthewise on Mar 2, 2008 3:08:10 GMT -4
How goes the trade proposal?
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Post by Matt Kovac on Mar 2, 2008 10:59:22 GMT -4
Ok This Teusday we will have a full and detailed proposal ready for your to check out and approve. My apologies for the delay.
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Post by andreasthewise on Mar 2, 2008 17:25:24 GMT -4
That's fine, just checking you haven't forgotten.
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Post by Matt Kovac on Mar 3, 2008 19:36:37 GMT -4
Trust me we havn't.
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Post by Matt Kovac on Mar 9, 2008 19:45:24 GMT -4
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Post by andreasthewise on Mar 9, 2008 20:06:23 GMT -4
Ahh, very interesting. However, the problem I instantly see is that Novatainia has two types of companies - goods and services. 'Service' companies are run by individuals and aren't really resources that can be traded (even if some of them are physical things, like MANA shops for magic items etc). All the 'goods' companies - companies that get resources - are listed on the stock exchange but effectively run by the government/me. None of them have private bank accounts.
I don't know quite how Ocia manages it, but for Novatainia at least, trading would have to be done on behalf of the whole country - it is still 'simulated' as companies, but it's all managed as one. Sorry, I keep thinking Micranlly - I have trouble separating simulated economy from actual economy. While in a simulated sense your proposal sounds good, in a practical sense, I can't see too much happening with it. Novatainian companies don't set up facilities in other countries to manufacture yatchs, for example. Yes, they set up in other countries, but it's always to get a resource to be provided for national demand, so to speak ... So trading could and would function, but it would, on the Novatainian side at least, be me handling it all. And we just end up trading because we want to trade, rather than having any actual use for the resources, which is more what I was hoping for ... sorry, it's the age old trading/economy question - we have money/resources, that's great. What is it actually good for?
In that sense, I would prefer a proposal that works on a national level and has uses for the resources for national consumption ... but I don't know how that fits in with Ocia's economy/plans. Probably this sort of agreement is perfect for normal GSO nations ... but not for us.
I'll do some more thinking on this and get back to you on how it could work. I do quite agree with sections 1 and 3 though!
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Post by andreasthewise on Mar 9, 2008 20:25:36 GMT -4
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Post by Matt Kovac on Mar 9, 2008 20:41:34 GMT -4
I see what you mean. Ocia bases its natural resources in its location in comparison to earth, but in reality there is no regulations on who gets what, I can very well claim that Ocia has every natural resource on the planet but it means nothing.
I also would like to point out that the majority of Ocia's natural gas is offshore, in either the North Polar sea or off the coast of North Point, but because the GSO is not like Micras we could NEVER ever determine how much natural resources we have, so there is a problem with realism right there, an unlimited amount of resources is just unrealistic but we have to deal with it because the GSO does not regulate such things.
Anyhow, I’m glad you though at least part of it was useful and I am egger to sea your revision of the idea.
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Post by andreasthewise on Mar 9, 2008 20:54:26 GMT -4
Ok, having given it slightly more thought, I've got a good idea ... We use your proposal, but add to it.
Essentially, I've realised different nations treat resources differently. Instead of trying to make everyone do one standard of trading, we instead allow to treat their side of trade the way they want to. Trade becomes, as you said, a series of agreements between individual nations. But I hope to make the one standard agreement that can be used by all. Think of it like this. Ocia wants to buy and sell by companies. Novatainia wants to buy and sell as a nation. Solution - we do just that. One person on Novatainia manages the trading - any nations who want stuff approach him. Similiarly, he approaches any other nations. But if he wants stuff from Ocia, he goes to the individual company, and buys it. And individual companies go to him. This also saves the need for a database, which we have had previously. Instead of keeping all info in a central place, nations keep all their info. All Novatainian trading goes through us - so we keep tabs on how much of our resources we've sold, even if it's to different people. And we keep tabs on all that we've bought. It does mean you can't just look and say "Ok, Ocia has this much, Nova has this much, Shireroth has this much of that resource" but it does make it a whole lot easier for whoever was going to have to design the database.
Individual trade agreements then include Exchange rates and what type of trading each nation will conduct itself as. As to % vs amount produced, we just work out an exchange rate (that is 100% oil = 500 million barrels or something) and so nations who want to buy in barrels work out the percent, and tell me, and nations that want to work in percent do that etc. I'll write a bit up about company and national use also (plus, nations can do both if it works for them ...)
The one thing left to define is government funds, but that can be done later ... I'll write this up into a proper proposal hopefully tommorow ...
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Post by andreasthewise on Mar 10, 2008 20:15:07 GMT -4
docs.google.com/Doc?id=drwj4wm_7fbtf85ccHere's my proposal and standard agreement rolled into one doc. The start bit is a generically worded agreement for trade between nations. The important thing about this agreement is the options nations have. They decide how their money is transferred (a or b) and an exchange rate is agreed. Each individual nation also decides how it will conduct it's trade (1, 2 or 3, which is combination). Below that, I have standard Trade Embargo/Blockade treaties (assumedly in a war trade stops too, but doesn't need a treaty ). Then I have my old reason for trading - national development, and a word on the other method. Finally, I'm developing the excel doc that will manage all this. Databases have failed me in the past, whereas excel is easy to use. While it means not all the information is in one place, it does mean that each nation can manage trade the way they want with their own excel doc, and as long as they record all their info right, it still works fine. The last word is on % vs units - which I just added to the document. I need a little help deciding the initial conversions - otherwise the system should work fine.
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Post by andreasthewise on Mar 10, 2008 22:22:51 GMT -4
I didn't realise how long the excel doc would take ... but it does have the functionality we require (apart from optional goals, but I can just drop that from the level thing). www.novatainia.org/user_files/andreas/Trade%20Workbook%20Trial.xls. Hopefully this works in Excel 2003, it was made in 2007 format then converted ... If it does, you should see the following features of functionality - Yellow cells you can edit (oops, forgot to protect the sheet ... just trust me, you only need to edit yellow cells) You put in the value (% wise) of the resource you make a month. Each transaction in that month (you can have up to three per resource) lists the nation you're transacting with, the price and amount exchanged, and whether they are Buying or Selling from/to you. From this, it calculates how much of the resource you have (that's the easy bit). At the bottom, it calculates the level you're on (so far it only calculates your food qualification ... that bit takes an insane amount of If - Then statements, but I'll get it working), (with you inserting X value, it goes red if you don't have a number higher than 0 in). On the other side, it also works out the total amount each nation owes you/you owe them. That takes an incredible amount of repeated code, but is actually rather nifty. Especially if you're trading as a nation, it tells you how much you are paying. You can type in the names of the nations (I should change that) and as long as it's typed in that way in the sheet above, it'll calculate it. You can even copy and paste and add more than 3 nations in .... Even if you still trade by companies, this is useful for you to work out if, as a nation, you're making money on trade or not ....
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Post by Matt Kovac on Mar 11, 2008 0:26:54 GMT -4
I think your proposal is great, infact far greater than mine. The excel system is great as well. The one thing I do not get is the percent. Is it the rate of Production? Like Say the Oil Company is at a 70% Production rate?
I am eager to get this signed, and put in place.
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Post by Matt Kovac on Mar 11, 2008 0:29:09 GMT -4
Also one thing is that if we want to make this realistic, its extremely hard in Real life to determine how much resources you actually have, so how would be go about saying how much we have, and what happens when we are out?
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Post by andreasthewise on Mar 11, 2008 1:33:41 GMT -4
I'll explain the percent again, that answers both your posts. The percent is percent control of an MCS resource as shown on the resource map. It grew out of an MCS based system, hence the definition. 100% generally means you have full control of one of that type of resource on the map. If you have two, it'd be 200% etc. The reason it's percent is because of several treaties Novatainia has signed which allow it access to a % of another nation's resource - 30% of Lovely's old land, and 10% of Alexandria. This means that Novatainian businesses can, in simulation, set up there, and access the resource and send it back to us. Technically that means if we trade with those nations 110 or 130% of a resource would be available - that's explained then by the fact that, as a well developed nation, we have more efficient businesses than starting nations, and between the two of us, can exploit more of the resource than would be normally possible. As far as I know, we are the only nation to sign such treaties and so that is not a worry of you. A third way to get percent less than 100 is by being close to a resource, but not on it. This is worked out, in MCS terms, on the grounds that you get Fish even though you don't technically own the land the fish is on - you own the coastline around the sea. So if there's a resource picture right next to your border, assumedly the resource actually spreads into a region that includes the area you have in your border. So, based on closeness, you can have up to 50% of those resources. However, this method is only appropriate for smaller nations - once you're the size of Gralus etc, you don't need that 'help' in accessing other resources. In Giess, which has no resource map, you just decide the percent based on the amount of land you control and the company. So we're on mountains, we've said we have 100% lead and copper, but only 50% Gems and Silver, because they're rarer ... that sort of principal. How do we do this in real life terms? Well, the percent renews monthly. So another way to look at it is so and so percent of the amount of that resource a real world region that produces that resource would get. So for sheep, say, you might take the real world region as New Zealand. Which a quick internet search says produces around 168 kt of wool a year. So that would be 14 kt a month. So if we decided that was the real world standard, 100% Sheep would be equal to 14 kt of wool and both would be produced in a month. The one thing with my proposal so far is I don't know the conversion rates. But once we have them, it's easy enough if Ocia wants to produce based on a certain amount per month, and we work in %. I'll make the Excel sheet convert automatically. The question remaining is whether you can stockpile resources or not. I've said no, just to be easier, but if Ocia decides they can, I won't stop you. That help? EDIT:A fully functional, albeit Excel 2007, version (if you don't have 2007, don't worry, I'll convert it to google docs soon, I just have to copy and paste the formulas manually as they're so big ...): www.novatainia.org/user_files/andreas/Trade%20Workbook.xlsx
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Post by Matt Kovac on Mar 11, 2008 10:13:20 GMT -4
Ok that makes complete sense now thanks, what I want to know though is how I can use it GSO wise becuase there is no symbol to use let alone determine how muhch of the symbol is in the territory.
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